Environmental Protection Agency - Obama Presidency Oral History

...career at EPA; because my first jobs at EPA were in Superfund. And Superfund, o...

...And Superfund, of all the programs in EPA , has the most robust communit...

...those were tools that you brought to EPA during the Obama administration. ...

...Sure. I brought back to EPA . But yes [laughs] . You brought bac...

...yes [laughs] . You brought back to EPA . Yes. Thanks for that. And I do wan...

...what's so extraordinary about being at EPA , then going to the state, and then no...

...to the state, and then now back to EPA , is you realize how much things g...

...I'm in my interview with him for the EPA position, we laughed abou...

...you to serve as administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency and about that interview? Oh, sure...

...me if I would consider serving on the EPA transition team. And by that point, th...

...mind leading the transition team for EPA ?” And I said, “Okay, no problem.” ...

...I resigned so that I could go run the EPA . But, back to your question...

...I did. Talked about what I was doing at EPA . And when I walked out, he said t...

...should know Lisa Jackson This is our EPA administrator.” That's as close as i...

...probably the last time [laughs] at the EPA I ever wrote anything that I read tha...

...at—or close to entry-level engineer at EPA . It was back to that idea again of...

...in New Jersey to head of the EPA , kind of your life's ambition. Bu...

...the group as “vivid reminders of how EPA can be a force for good if it does it...

...its job well, and what can go wrong if EPA falls short.” What was it important fo...

...time by the time I came to head up the EPA . There was also a history in the year...

...so many communities—when I started at EPA in '87, I worked in DC, but by '89 ...

...make sure that if I was going to be at EPA , one of—we had seven priorities for m...

...had seven priorities for my time at EPA . And one of them was aroun...

...will not compromise the integrity of EPA 's technical experts to advanc...

...“Science must be the backbone of what EPA does.” Why was it important to you t...

...of the headlines in the papers was that EPA scientists had been overruled by Whit...

...overruled was in the Massachusetts v. EPA case and the fallout from that...

...the State of Massachusetts, had sued EPA under the Bush administration and said...

...for you as far as air pollution, then EPA must address it. EPA must set about th...

...pollution, then EPA must address it. EPA must set about the process o...

...that the endangerment finding. Once EPA finds something endangers public healt...

...compelled to act. So Massachusetts sued EPA and said, “You have been looking awa...

...other climate-changing gases. And you, EPA , by this law are required to make ...

...and welfare, now and in the future.” EPA lost that case [laughs], and lost it o...

...and now documented, piece of EPA White House history, prepared th...

...had come to unfortunately associate EPA regulatory work with. I don't want t...

...other types—of challenging every single EPA rule, to the point where they woul...

...was so important to remind people that EPA is primarily an agency composed o...

...I was also—a lot of the people who run EPA have been lawyers. And I'm a little bi...

...in January of 2009, you announced that EPA , under your watch, would follo...

...the court's order in Massachusetts v. EPA . At the time, in announcing that EP...

...v. EPA. At the time, in announcing that EPA would indeed [be] determining if CO...

...of environmental policy, and Mass v. EPA , and endangerment findings, but the...

...in January of 2009, you announced that EPA would review California's request t...

...standards, which are set jointly with EPA and DOT [Department of Transportation...

...sets the fuel-economy standards, but EPA sets the emission standards [laughs]...

...who succeeded me as head of the EPA —I'm not even sure Gina went. M...

...one of the interesting things about EPA . It's a really fascinating plac...

...kind of tricky. In September of 2009, EPA also announced that it would requir...

...their emissions. Up to that point, had EPA been able to quantify the variou...

...because you have all these offices of EPA around the country. You visit th...

...great. The labs are really special. EPA has labs across the country. That wa...

...back to December of 2009. That month, EPA issued an endangerment an...

...And the whole point of Massachusetts v. EPA was that the Clean Air Act, existin...

...law, an existing law alone, gave EPA the authority to regulate greenhous...

...you go ahead and pass a new law or EPA is waiting in the wings?” And it wa...

...[laughs] . The “or else you get the EPA .” So that was the only thing ...

...happens through the State Department. EPA was not in charge of the negotiations...

...was scheduled to make a speech—and that EPA would use that speech to announce tha...

...enforcement, oversight, something of EPA , where—I remain convinced th...

...how to implement this measure was at EPA . So it wasn't that I thought EPA rule...

...was at EPA. So it wasn't that I thought EPA rules were the best way, under th...

...and banking, another example. The EPA doesn't have that. There's no—there i...

...of the economy, but in general, the EPA 's constituency is the people and th...

...staffers in the agencies, like EPA , and maybe they have a question abou...

...between those staffers and staff at the EPA . And that's happening through EPA'...

...the EPA. And that's happening through EPA 's office of congressional affairs. Bu...

...carbon-exchange system, to be housed at EPA in the event that cap and trade becam...

...is because that program was run out of EPA . The assignment of emission...

...be sold—all that was happening through EPA 's auspices. So EPA had deep expertis...

...happening through EPA's auspices. So EPA had deep expertise in that. Part o...

...cap and trade changed the agenda at EPA in any way. Oh yes, sure. Th...

...if you don't pass a law, the big, bad EPA is going to regulate, is kind of wher...

...than climate change. And as head of the EPA , so are you. You're dealing with al...

...team and as administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency in the Obama administration. This i...

...by asking just a question or two about EPA as an agency and your memories of EP...

...EPA as an agency and your memories of EPA when you arrived. In our last session...

...to ask about how you thought about EPA and community engagement when you firs...

...but it wasn't my first arrival at EPA , right? I had never worked in tha...

...Clinton Building, but I had worked for EPA in New York City and in Washington, DC...

...or, I guess, knowledge of how EPA works in communities, because I worke...

...of the more community-oriented parts of EPA , which is the Superfund program...

...one of the coolest places to work in EPA ; because, you know, you can work a...

...EPA; because, you know, you can work at EPA your whole career and never really wor...

...the amount of community engagement that EPA had across the country? Yes, with ...

...is very much true that, in most cases, EPA either delegates or gives the lead fo...

...to ask a question about personnel at EPA . I've read that in early 2009, yo...

...to bring more diversity to the staff at EPA . And I wanted to ask you if there ar...

...that a lack of diversity had hindered EPA and its mission, and also if there wer...

...to try to diversify the personnel at EPA . Oh, sure. I mean, I think EPA, lik...

...at EPA. Oh, sure. I mean, I think EPA , like many parts of the government...

...I was far from the first head of the EPA that was a woman, but I was the firs...

...I wanted to ask: As your tenure at EPA began in 2009, how did you want t...

...Gulf Coast, and I've read that part of EPA 's role in responding to the acciden...

...those assessments? Yes, it's part of EPA 's role, but not our only role. Yo...

...which is a federal designated trustee. EPA is not a trustee of resources. Then yo...

...is that as a regulatory agency, EPA has real authority, as does th...

...enforced ocean drilling, so that's not EPA . After Deepwater Horizon, that tea...

...Then, it was also not an EPA lead response. The Coast Guard was th...

...it happened in navigable waters. EPA had a couple of roles. The first wa...

...was surprising; because, of course, EPA was borne out of an oil spill, th...

...Reilly, who had been the head of the EPA , ended up being one of the cochairs o...

...really cool job for me, because, again, EPA is not a natural damage—we're not ...

...and yet I think I really used my EPA Superfund experience; was part of th...

...penalties was a big concern, and EPA could assess those penalties with th...

...concern about cattle and wildlife, that EPA was trying to shut down thos...

...We were well into the idea that EPA was going to fly drones and spy o...

...shut down. One of my favorites, that EPA was going to use the PM10, th...

...problem, but biofuels in general, how EPA would or wouldn't regulate biofuel...

...2012 that you'd be stepping down from EPA , and the official announcement came i...

...And we don't all get what we want, but EPA is actually a fairly unforgiving plac...

...job, because “the administrator of the EPA shall” is written in any number o...

...single action you take as head of the EPA is going to be litigated. Almost ever...

...It was so aimed at agencies like EPA . The Koch brothers [Charles G. Koc...

...are in the ascendancy. They can't stand EPA . So you have this whol...

...1990, it's continued. Basically says, EPA shall regulate air pollution based o...

...point during the Carter administration, EPA actually lessened the ozone standard. ...

...law that the Supreme Court said: the EPA shall have to regulate greenhouse gas...

...I used to say to people when I was at EPA , “I'm not free to do anything. I wor...

...Clinton-Gore get elected. I go to run EPA . You have to be confirmed by th...

...Dingell do not want to see an active EPA . And I'm being thoroughly outspoken...

...been done prior to when I got to the EPA . It had been stuck in a drawer. I too...

...we had a proposal to change EPA from an agency into a department. An...

...pulled the plug. This whole idea that EPA was out of control, that EPA was doin...

...idea that EPA was out of control, that EPA was doing too much. I would always sa...

...to me, I would talk to and explain what EPA does, how it does it, why you want a...

...of the things we did while I was at EPA was, there was an environmental justic...

...think, one of the most important things EPA did in terms of protecting publi...

...that the granted authority to EPA to set these standards was a...

...name off, and they put the then–head of EPA 's name on—who had had nothing to d...

...you should probably change how EPA does this. And you should probabl...

...There's a long, long history now. The EPA has been at this for a very, very lon...

...accidentally gave you an idea for how EPA could regulate greenhouse gases. Ca...

...because there's a publication—not an EPA publication—called InsideEPA. It'...

...but some daily sheet of what's going on EPA , not published by EPA. EPA has nothin...

...what's going on EPA, not published by EPA . EPA has nothing to do it. So DeLa...

...going on EPA, not published by EPA. EPA has nothing to do it. So DeLay says...

...I said, “What paper?” He says, “Inside EPA .” I say, “Well, that's not us.” H...

...office. We leave it sitting there at EPA . And the state of Massachusetts find...

...way to the Supreme Court, arguing that EPA should be regulating greenhouse gases...

...of the memo, basically saying, “Yes, if EPA makes these scientific determinations...

...this endangerment thing. Whoever is at EPA is going to have to look at the scienc...

...Jackson, when she assumes her role at EPA , looks at all of this—the work had al...

...When I was the administrator at the EPA , my counterpart in Germany, th...

...but they had never completed it. The EPA staff was doing what they woul...

...law, and legal authority that sat at EPA under another law, and we created—w...

...I would say my experience at EPA was much more important, where we ha...

...is, they invited me back after I left EPA . They said, “You should come back an...

...was dealing with industry—I mean, even EPA was very—when I first got there, w...

...that to me.” In the '90s when you were EPA [crosstalk]—? At EPA. Yes, it wa...

...when you were EPA [crosstalk]—? At EPA . Yes, it was early at EPA. Thanks fo...

...At EPA. Yes, it was early at EPA . Thanks for discussing that. Th...

...felt like—you know, I was picked to run EPA in '93. I was very young. And I learne...

...Massachusetts filed the lawsuit against EPA , they argued that their primary sourc...

...regulate car pollution outside of what EPA does. And thirteen states have joine...

...Mary Nichols, we had worked together at EPA setting the ozone and fine particle...

...propose a carbon tax, and they wipe out EPA authority to regulate. A carbon ta...

...ratcheting it up. You can also keep the EPA regulatory authority as a backstop. S...

...you're not getting the reductions, then EPA would step in and set the regulations...

...all the carbon-tax proposals wipe out EPA authority, I have not been a supporte...

...the environment minister and I was at EPA , was, “You guys want to use thi...

...issues. I used to joke, when I was at EPA , long before Obama, rarely was th...

...that the federal government, the EPA , can grant day-to-day regulator...

...will not exercise it properly, so EPA has to step in with its federa...

...it's a good division of labor, because EPA has a certain set of skills, and it ca...

...have the science capabilities that EPA had. We simply didn't. We didn't hav...

...us on new technologies. When I was at EPA , I think our lab in Ann Arbor...

...the expense. They left it sitting. So EPA — [laughs] I think it's still tru...

...it's not, but certainly while I was at EPA —was doing the day-to-day work fo...

...The power is granted by Congress to EPA , and then the Congress says to EPA...

...to EPA, and then the Congress says to EPA , “You can delegate certain of thes...

...these powers to a state agency.” Then EPA does an analysis to determine whethe...

...of fine particles. So you don't—the EPA holds onto the big science decision...

...states as we think of them, most of EPA statutes also allow EPA to delegate t...

...them, most of EPA statutes also allow EPA to delegate to tribes that have set u...

...But we did, in fact, when I was at EPA , start the process of actuall...

...Project XL. That was actually at EPA . Project XL was at EPA. But it wa...

...was actually at EPA. Project XL was at EPA . But it was informed by an experienc...

...restoration. So when I got to EPA , I realized there were ways to wor...

...make a decision as a regulator at the EPA , you've made a lot of people unhappy...

...There's also then the memo we left at EPA , which forms the basis of th...

...forms the basis of the Massachusetts v. EPA , which forms the basis of the Suprem...

...of the Supreme Court decision saying EPA can regulate greenhouse gases, or shal...

...regulatory agencies, and specifically EPA . That is in large part, we understan...

...brothers, who were regulated by the EPA . Someone has written a book recentl...

...with America was a full-on attack of EPA . They had ten horror stories abou...

...EPA. They had ten horror stories about EPA . That, in my experience, is a ver...

...the smog, the soot, etc. Now the EPA was starting to work on more comple...

...fervor. I think that what it causes EPA to have to do and the Clinto...

...of negatives about the nanny state, EPA is out of control. One of the thing...

...and there's a bill to try and make EPA the Department of Environmenta...

...you see happening under Trump at the EPA comes right out of that initial attac...

...have direct authority when I was at EPA over this—but says, “Oh, we're going t...

...with the industry. I think that what EPA has done around cars is a good example...

...has done around cars is a good example. EPA has been funded to establish a la...

...the car industry and come to work for EPA in this lab to develop new solutions...

...organic compounds, into the air. EPA has really been an important part o...

...all of the industries. Also remember, EPA has a very different role in regulatin...

...of Interior. In my experience, EPA is a regulatory agency first an...

...a very different mindset. It's funny. EPA has some parts of it that are no...

...rest of the agency. So, for example, EPA licensed pesticides. That's not ...

...were. And that's just something the EPA would know. Right? Because that's wha...

...would know. Right? Because that's what EPA does. I should be clear. There ar...

...clear. There are some permits issued by EPA for these drilling rigs because the...

...exactly a science. So, when [laughs] EPA gets created by Richard Nixon, at on...

...authority on fuel efficiency and the EPA authority on tailpipe and greenhous...

...all get locked—I did it when I was at EPA . You get locked into what you...

...possibility internationally? You had EPA working on power plants. You had th...

...books for eight years, six years. At EPA , they're going back even further. I...

...don't want Congress to do it. They want EPA to do it. Because there's a proces...

...you this example, but when I got to EPA —did we talk about drinking water an...

...a Democratic Congress—gets mad at the EPA for not regulating drinking wate...

...the law—a list of pollutants that EPA shall regulate. So, I get to EPA...

...that EPA shall regulate. So, I get to EPA . We're going down the list, right? ...

...is not on the list that Congress handed EPA . That was a static list based on th...

...drinking water. They said, you know, “ EPA shall have this list. They shall se...

...out there and say, “Yes, we're meeting EPA standards. We're doing what we'r...

...are some who will say, “We hate the EPA . We don't know why we should have t...

...the authority was to— It came from EPA . You know, I don't remember what la...

...I don't remember. But yes, it was EPA 's decision. It was obviously one tha...

...May of 2010, for the first time, EPA announces emissions thresholds fo...

...part of what was happening was, EPA was going through all of the steps. An...

...about Congress. In 1994, when you're EPA administrator in the Clinto...

...did in the White House. I didn't, at EPA . Because again, at EPA, you're no...

...I didn't, at EPA. Because again, at EPA , you're not really engaged as much i...

...was even true in my experience at the EPA . At the end of the day, I had to b...

...permit] and then also directed the EPA to postpone implementing ne...

...Air Quality Standards when I was at EPA , ozone and fine particles. And I wa...

...We did a lot of work when I was at EPA on this. I set up the NEJAC [Nationa...

...sorry. I'm sorry. Right. When I'm at EPA , we set up the National Environmenta...

...this. So we were working, when I was at EPA , with the Justice Department to tr...

...been a presidential memorandum—telling EPA and the Department of Transportation t...

...then had that experience, and came to EPA . So understanding that—it's hard t...

...In fact—I think maybe I was still at EPA , though. At one point, I went to mee...

... We tried very hard when I was at EPA to explain part of—we're th...

...one more time—you had said, “I once ran EPA , and I've seen this movie before. Yo...

...regulations—again, it's Interior and EPA , but it's going to oscillate. It'...

...my purview, in the sense that it's an EPA [Environmental Protection Agency...

...in the sense that it's an EPA [ Environmental Protection Agency ] issue. Then the EPA got into it an...

...Protection Agency] issue. Then the EPA got into it and said, “What abou...

...like the plant issues, fall under EPA rather than Energy, even though th...

...another one actually having to do with EPA , which EPA initiated and that had t...

...actually having to do with EPA, which EPA initiated and that had to do wit...

...Yes, there were. [The] head of EPA , she was trained as kind of ...

...But she was a very like-minded soul. EPA is another thing. Energy and EPA...

...soul. EPA is another thing. Energy and EPA , [there] definitely should be ...

...testing, because there was a fear that EPA wouldn't be straightforward becaus...

...issued a presidential memo directing EPA to, “Expeditiously complete carbo...

...year, of course, in March of 2012, EPA had issued a draft rule limiting CO...

...effectively, in the Obama years, with EPA ? What was that relationship like? ...

...and my work at USDA, than I did it in EPA . The agenda was so set and was reall...