Libya - Obama Presidency Oral History Back Libya Index / Locations Transcripts Dennis Ross ...in places like Tunisia and Egypt and Libya . What are you making of this as you'r... ...the administration in 2011, that Libya and Syria are going to be major issue... ...Some of this is Iraq, some of this is Libya . But I recall, when I'm still in th... ...there. I leave the end of 2011, and Libya is taking up a lot of the attention... ...because we repeated them exactly in Libya . The big mistake in Iraq was, you g... ...humanitarian disaster in Benghazi [ Libya ], which is legitimate. But then tha... ...the lessons of Iraq. I would say in Libya we repeat the mistake. In Syria, w... ...Hillary was leading on Syria and on Libya . But the basic requirements of what i... Show more... Mara Rudman ...had various kinds of offices set up for Libya and Tunisia as well; a mission i... ...as well; a mission in Tunisia, and Libya had various arrangements. So ther... Derek Chollet ... For example, our ambassador to Libya was pulled out of Libya because o... ...ambassador to Libya was pulled out of Libya because of WikiLeaks. There was ... ...helping to work at the NSC on a war in Libya , I would've said you're insane. Tha... ...of 2011, was that we would be at war in Libya . And I vividly remember, I took a lon... ...had the Egyptian Revolution, and then Libya started, and then, soon after that... ...on one thing, what's happening in Libya or Tunisia or Egypt or Syria, th... ...early on. It was shortly after that the Libya unrest began and then evolved into ... ...a major role from the NSC in the Libya policy. How did that come about, an... ...Iraq, with Iran, with Egypt. So when Libya popped, it was somewhat like the cu... ...to get a handle on what's going on in Libya ? Oh, it was a big challenge, in par... ...we, the US, didn't know a lot about Libya . Meaning we had not had diplomati... ...there weren't very many people who were Libya experts. And frankly, within th... ...there weren't very many people who were Libya experts. It just wasn't a country tha... ...remember the first several weeks of the Libya crisis, obviously much of th... ...of getting foreign nationals out of Libya , evacuating the US embassy and ou... ...the US embassy and our facilities in Libya . Which was done by other agencies, bu... ...do you get all these Americans out of Libya safely so they're not in harm's way... ...where European countries who knew Libya a lot better than the US, who—obviousl... ...the US, who—obviously geographically, Libya matters much more to them than to th... ...much more to them than to the US, and Libya 's neighbors, the Arab League i... ...to—warning of what was happening inside Libya , warning of the potential for grea... ...want to talk a little more about Libya , first, because I know Barack Obam... ...that seems to be what plays out in Libya . So, I know you remain personall... ...know you remain personally involved in Libya from the NSC in the months after th... ...a little bit. I know you traveled to Libya in July. No, not to Libya. Oh, it'... ...traveled to Libya in July. No, not to Libya . Oh, it's not to Libya, sorry. ... ...No, not to Libya. Oh, it's not to Libya , sorry. Tunisia. To Tunisia. W... ... To Tunisia. We couldn't go to Libya . I'll give you a very brief—my rol... ...a bit from those initial days of the Libya crisis blowing up, where I was helpin... ...assorted with the staffing around the Libya decision making to then thinkin... ...what a post-Qaddafi or post-conflict Libya —what that process would look like. An... ...or cochaired several IPCs related to Libya ; both the operational side about ho... ...and Afghanistan. Remember: in 2011, in Libya , for the better part of a decade, th... ...get ready to apply all of that to Libya . Which on the one hand was good, bu... ...It was not going to be that case in Libya . So it was also trying to shape and i... ...what the US was going to do, because Libya was not going to be a situation wher... ...of the post-Qaddafi prospects for Libya , and did they change as you becam... ...as the legitimate leadership of Libya . That enabled us to be able to giv... ...falling apart. The ambassador of Libya to the US had defected. The foreig... ...was kind of running for the hills in Libya . So some of those folks we still deal... ...to the question of our thinking about Libya 's future, but then also the specifi... ...issue of the Tunisia interaction. On Libya 's future, I think early on people fel... ...to 2011, there were folks who looked at Libya and saw a lot of potential there. ... ...going on and on about the potential of Libya , and at that point the US didn't eve... ...even think had begun the effort to get Libya to come clean on a nuclear program an... ...was trying to make the case then, Hey, Libya has all this potential. It could be ... ...enthusiasm and bullish perspective on Libya was there in 2011. And the thought was... ...he was particularly, uniquely bad, but Libya had a lot going for it. It had robus... ...in Europe, but also the region, so Libya 's neighbors, as extremely enthusiasti... ...display of international support for Libya . So you added all that up, and yo... ...and you felt like there was hope for Libya . In fact, I would argue that in th... ...NSC was chairing on various aspects of Libya , in terms of both the day-to-da... ...that this not be seen as a US- Libya fight. We had turned over command an... ...the regime wanted to make this a US- Libya discussion. Then, at some point i... ...Gene Cretz, the US ambassador to Libya , who had left Tripoli in Decembe... ...briefly wrap up the conversation on Libya , and I'm sure that we'll— We'll ge... ...played a particularly important role in Libya turning into the protracted conflict i... ...unique dysfunction that was Qaddafi's Libya . And I think he didn't rule so muc... ...it probably created a perception that Libya , there was more unity within th... ...to a better outcome. I tend to look at Libya as more of a story of policy traged... ...without understanding what happened in Libya . Because, going back to your questio... ...over the conversation, just as the Libya campaign ended was when the Syria wa... ...discussion from what was happening in Libya to what was happening in Syria. So al... ...lot worse and a lot harder in Syria. So Libya was actually an easier case. And eve... ...the things going for it that we thought Libya had. So it felt like the cost of bein... ...higher in Syria than they were in Libya . Can I ask you to say a little bi... ...on its face, of a policy problem than Libya ? You had no international suppor... ...much of anything in Syria, whereas in Libya it was almost overdetermined, the leve... ...You think back to the early days of Libya crisis, the criticism of th... ...So the dynamic was totally different in Libya when you compare it to Iraq. And Syri... ...legal authorization. Again, Libya , for one of the rare times in th... ...on Syria because of what happened with Libya , by the way. So you weren't going t... ...even to do something in Syria versus Libya . The level of violence and th... ...and more intense than they were in Libya . And this is something that ofte... ...had one chemical weapons facility in Libya that—Libya had, of course, declared it... ...weapons facility in Libya that— Libya had, of course, declared its chemica... ...of Chemical Weapons, was destroying Libya 's chemical weapon stockpile at ... ...facility called Waddan in the south of Libya . When the war started, th... ...international community went back into Libya and searched around there, they foun... ...the final thing I'll say on this, on Libya , just because it helps illustrate th... ...the Syria problem, is that in Libya , particularly right after the war, we... ...fire of concern over the disposition of Libya 's conventional arsenal, particularl... ...weapon site we were worried about in Libya , we had over forty in Syria. And ... ...intervene, or Syria were to crater like Libya , the bottom falls out of the regime... ...on a regime like the Qaddafi regime in Libya or the Assad regime in Syria to en... ...difficulty of getting a handle on the Libya situation made, I think, the moo... ...Shit, if we can't get our arms around Libya and we have all this internationa... ...Syria was also exponentially worse. In Libya , we intervened because of what wer... ...is, there had been, as there was in Libya but only much more pronounced in Syria... ...on, which was that what happened in Libya made impossible the internationa... ...just made it harder. Of course, in the Libya situation, you had European allies... ...pushing hard for some sort of action in Libya from the early going. And the questio... ...agency over what was going on with Libya . Moreover, you had the regiona... ...zone and international intervention in Libya . Neither of those applied to Syria... ...to go forward and they had abstained in Libya . And that had allowed a Chapter VII... ...get it in Iraq. So you did get it in Libya . Because the Libyan war went the wa... ...was [Dmitry] Medvedev's handling of the Libya situation; that he felt that that ha... ...It was peaceful protests in Syria and Libya . It was lawyers protesting, initially... ...was lawyers protesting, initially, in Libya . So I think he certainly, just give... ...enough, it was actually on a trip to Libya . This was after the conflict, so thi... ...first US secretary of defense to visit Libya . I was on the NSC staff, and I went o... ...was Iran, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Israel, Libya , that was just a lot of work righ... ...Middle East. Of course, NATO led the Libya air campaign, and European partner... ...Arab Spring and the complications of Libya in that earlier session. I guess I wan... ...what we had just been going through in Libya . Throughout 2011 and 2012, so the Ara... ...of 2012, we were extremely concerned in Libya about the disposition of the remnant... ...the disposition of the remnants of Libya 's chemical weapons program that ha... ...of the war, about the disposition of Libya 's chemical weapons arsenal. Tha... ...frankly, as a result of our war against Libya that chemical weapons would've gotte... ...time focused on a couple facilities in Libya where the chemical weapons had bee... ...of what we didn't know about. That was Libya . It bleeds right into Syria in th... ...arsenal was exponentially larger than Libya 's, far more vast. There were som... ...So this was very different than Libya . The size, scope—enormous. In Libya... ...Libya. The size, scope—enormous. In Libya , we had a situation where th... ...today, I can't say for sure—it's like Libya , where [unclear] I think it was mor... Show more... Michael McFaul ...But things were not going well in Libya , and Putin was publicly criticizin... ...the Medvedev meeting, and it was about Libya mostly. And he said, “Oh, by the way... ...out, and then you had the events of Libya and Syria, which became very violent... ...until Mubarak steps down, and then it's Libya immediately after, and Syri... ...more push of cooperation with them on Libya , but the new things that were facin... Jeffrey Feltman ...over of the nuclear material from Libya and compensating the Lockerbie [Pan A... ...me about how the things were going with Libya . She asked me my views on Iran, abou... ...out, because of a very complicated Libya -related issue that's really no... ...me personally; it was something about a Libya policy that dated back to the Bus... ...surveillance forces. Our Ambassador in Libya , Gene Cretz, at the time, wa... ...in Iran with the Gulf. Then I went to Libya to try to see if I could basically sav... ...we had gone—the relationship with Libya was so difficult, based on th... ...of weapons of mass destruction from Libya ; we had gotten compensation for th... ...then in February that's when Yemen, Libya , Syria, Bahrain, Morocco, Jordan—bu... ...[Canal] passage, what's happening in Libya . You just name it; almost everythin... ...perhaps one of the most important, was Libya , which takes place between Februar... ...this, but—says the intervention in Libya was a fifty-one-forty-nine call, afte... ...knowing all of the horrors of Libya since then, I don't think we had an... ...trying to have a peaceful transition in Libya , to having Gaddafi leave with dignit... ...find a way for a peaceful transition in Libya that would include allowing him and hi... ...with Secretary Clinton at a Friends of Libya meeting in the Élysée Palace in Pari... ...announcing the first French forays into Libya [laughs]. So, yes, you're right t... ...rich, wide relationships. Whereas in Libya , we didn't have that. We had ... ...over the years. Whenever we talk about Libya , we talked about it in the context o... ...Egypt was much about the US-Egypt— Libya was not. Libya wa... ...much about the US-Egypt—Libya was not. Libya was regional-international. In May... ...the experiences now of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya , Bahrain, Yemen—when th... ...Syria example, as I am by Bahrain and Libya and many others. But in our view, w... ...You're presumably thinking about Libya , about Tunisia. You have so man... ...then Gaddafi offered to host Ben Ali in Libya . And this was a brief but huge crisis... ...Had Gaddafi moved Ben Ali back to Libya under the Tunisian border, it woul... ...just not sure, with the exception of Libya , how decisive the international rol... ...by Samantha Power and others—to Libya . This was during the post-Gaddaf... ...was during the post-Gaddafi period in Libya . And we stayed overnight the nigh... ...night before. In fact, I had been in Libya before, and I met them in Malta, whic... ...we stayed overnight, and flew back to Libya the next day. Samantha Power and ... ...envoys. There's an envoy for Yemen, for Libya , for Iraq, for Lebanon, for the Middl... Show more... Michèle Flournoy ...getting to a new set of issues with Libya and the aftermath of the Arab Spring... ...for international intervention in Libya . Is that how you experienced it a... ...not. I want to spend a little time on Libya , which is, in some ways, a decisio... ...was rather intense. How did you see the Libya issue and the questions surrounding i... ...much-deeper interests and histories in Libya , particularly the UK and France... ...do you think the experience of Libya and the administration's learning o... ...doing the job yourself. But I do think Libya made everybody very gun shy of any us... ...we had to redeploy to deal with ISIS. Libya , as we discussed—I think there are ... Show more... Jim Steinberg ...to revisit. But I do want to talk about Libya . So much has been written abou... ...are trying to reestablish themselves in Libya ; there's a downside to this. But thi... ...right in the middle of the debate over Libya , right over Bahrain. It's—I think th... ...have to be involved. We talked about Libya . That's my strong conviction. You'r... James Clapper ...spread from Tunisia to Egypt, and then Libya , throughout the region, I'm curiou... ...makes the decision to intervene in Libya to pursue the UN [United Nations... ...and coordinate the intervention in Libya . He's called that, and he called it i... ...intelligence about what was going on in Libya did factor in to— I'm going to try t... ...for my resignation, early on in the Libya situation before we intervened. I wa... ...be intractable issues, whether it was Libya , or Syria, or Iraq, or Afghanistan. ... ...think about the evolution of events in Libya , for example, and the discussion abou... Show more... Load more Transcripts Related Topics go to the Asia Rebalance Asia Rebalance go to the Democrats Democrats go to the Women and Girls Women and Girls go to the Labor Labor go to the Climate, Environment, and Energy Climate, Environment, and Energy